The pairing of Pirate with bananas gives the reader a preview of how Pynchon creates a ghost set and setting for the novel. In every appearance, the novel takes place mostly in Europe in the 1940s. But it is also always taking place in America in the 1960s, the moment in which he was writing. Much of what was to happen with United Fruit was in the future in Pirate's time and place, but it would be forefront of mind for the American post-hippy liberal. So make the English character in the novel carry the metaphorical weight of the United Fruit Company, and give ol' Slothrop a break. Also, it allows him to introduce these themes before Slothrop enters the novel.
Take care as you read not to lose touch with the libidinal pleasure, the humor, the camp. It's a good banana song. "the hair of the dog that not without provocation and much prior conditioning bit them last night." Shows how one of Pynchon's techniques is to always say the thing that's between the thing.
I agree with Pirate as a middle ground; despite working for British intelligence, he is a sympathetic character. In fact, I think most of the individual characters in the novel live somewhere in this middle; most of the people in the book, the reader gets along with, wants to hang out with, and if they work on the side of the Rocket, that is not their own fault but the fault of their world. Each person within that Force is navigating their own life, always weighing the moral cost of complicity, always at least vaguely in touch with the Counterforce. Except Blicero.
So, what's the 'stack policy on spoilers? As you allude to, Pirate switches sides by the end of the book; the last time we see him, he's working for the Counterforce. Did I ruin the book for you? Just testing the waters.
The 40s/60s connection was always confusing to me but I'm beginning to see the connection because of your comment. When you say the English character holds the weight and Slothrop gets a break, are you meaning that the burden of colonialism/exploitation begins in the UK and is handed down to the US, so the novel is almost showing a transfer of this "power" dynamic to the point that the American is oblivious, being that it is engrained in their mindset?
Completely agree about the libidinal pleasures. I get caught up in the more bleak sociopolitical commentary of the novel that I sometimes forget to just enjoy the beautiful and comic moments that are so plentiful. No matter how horrifying Pynchon's themes are, he really does have some beauty and hope in his writing.
Policy on spoilers is non-existent. I personally think anyone who gets mad about a spoiler in this novel hasn't actually read the novel because it's really not plot driven. I personally will still give spoiler tags in the main body because I know new readers may eventually find this, but as for the comments, you are free to say what you will!
Yes, that's what I mean, but didn't articulate very well...
The years after WWII in the Zone/Europe were perhaps THE major pivot point in 20th century history. On the one hand, England essentially passed its empire on to America, and became a client-state of the American empire. It was the beginning of the replacement of the English Empire with the American one -- which was basically consecrated and made official with the Suez Crisis in 1956. Making Pirate carry the metaphorical weight of the *subsequent* crimes of the American empire evokes this.
But the other major simultaneous pivot--that turned out not to be a pivot at all, but rather an revealing or unmasking--was in the position opposite the Empire, the enemy of the British/American continuum, which was prior to the Zone supposed to be fascist Germany + its allies. That enemy soundly defeated (by the Soviets), the Americans risked losing the justification for the War Machine they had built up in the war years, and so they needed to pivot to fighting Russia. But this shift from fighting Hitler to fighting Stalin turned out to be no shift or pivot at all for a certain section of the American + British Deep State, exemplified by the Dulles Brothers, who were basically allied with the Germans (under the table) and always saw the USSR as the actual enemy of the US. (Remember that Foster Dulles cried like a little bitch when he was forced to stop signing all his correspondence "Heil Hitler" and close his Berlin office--I would never use such sexist language except when describing a fascist).
So in various ways, the novel points out the veiled or underground alliance between US and Germany throughout the whole World Wars period -- something to be on the lookout for throughout the novel.
Love this. An analysis of Slothrop's character has always been one of the more confusing/difficult aspects of the novel for me, but viewing it through this lens might bring out some interesting ideas.
It's such an incredible novel. I'll probably be rereading it this coming year. Currently rereading The Savage Detectives actually. Bolano is great all around.
A great recent exploration of these ideas is the poetry collection Banana [ ] by Paul Hlava Ceballos. A lot of it is composed from scraps of United Fruit documents and focuses a lot more specifically on the suffering they created.
I don't know, I read the banana more prosaically. Obviously there's the Freudian symbolism, as subtle as a banana cream pie to the face. I also get the impression that in this war torn economy, food is scarce and rationed, so the barrack's residents are lucky to have these nourishing life-affirming bananas on hand. And a penis, too, is life affirming in its own way.
This scene, together with the ones that follow, start an ongoing theme of the cthonic, the earthy, the squidgy, mucousy, slimy organic things of biology, that are at some points life affirming (as opposed to that steel banana), at other points nauseating, and often both, I mean, think of the act of birth.
Both penises and bananas are funny, both penises and bananas are gross, and yes, both penises and bananas are important.
So while I agree that the penis/banana/biological/mechanical aspects of this are huge, I think that this initial discussion of the banana is meant as an attempt to invoke the UFC. Once we get more phallic representations of the mechanical versus biological (which really comes into play once Slothrop is introduced) then you'll see my comparisons for those themes.
So I agree with you in what the banana and thus the Rocket/penis represent, but I do also think that this specific scene was meant to invoke the specifics mentioned above.
Yes.
The pairing of Pirate with bananas gives the reader a preview of how Pynchon creates a ghost set and setting for the novel. In every appearance, the novel takes place mostly in Europe in the 1940s. But it is also always taking place in America in the 1960s, the moment in which he was writing. Much of what was to happen with United Fruit was in the future in Pirate's time and place, but it would be forefront of mind for the American post-hippy liberal. So make the English character in the novel carry the metaphorical weight of the United Fruit Company, and give ol' Slothrop a break. Also, it allows him to introduce these themes before Slothrop enters the novel.
Take care as you read not to lose touch with the libidinal pleasure, the humor, the camp. It's a good banana song. "the hair of the dog that not without provocation and much prior conditioning bit them last night." Shows how one of Pynchon's techniques is to always say the thing that's between the thing.
I agree with Pirate as a middle ground; despite working for British intelligence, he is a sympathetic character. In fact, I think most of the individual characters in the novel live somewhere in this middle; most of the people in the book, the reader gets along with, wants to hang out with, and if they work on the side of the Rocket, that is not their own fault but the fault of their world. Each person within that Force is navigating their own life, always weighing the moral cost of complicity, always at least vaguely in touch with the Counterforce. Except Blicero.
So, what's the 'stack policy on spoilers? As you allude to, Pirate switches sides by the end of the book; the last time we see him, he's working for the Counterforce. Did I ruin the book for you? Just testing the waters.
The 40s/60s connection was always confusing to me but I'm beginning to see the connection because of your comment. When you say the English character holds the weight and Slothrop gets a break, are you meaning that the burden of colonialism/exploitation begins in the UK and is handed down to the US, so the novel is almost showing a transfer of this "power" dynamic to the point that the American is oblivious, being that it is engrained in their mindset?
Completely agree about the libidinal pleasures. I get caught up in the more bleak sociopolitical commentary of the novel that I sometimes forget to just enjoy the beautiful and comic moments that are so plentiful. No matter how horrifying Pynchon's themes are, he really does have some beauty and hope in his writing.
Policy on spoilers is non-existent. I personally think anyone who gets mad about a spoiler in this novel hasn't actually read the novel because it's really not plot driven. I personally will still give spoiler tags in the main body because I know new readers may eventually find this, but as for the comments, you are free to say what you will!
Yes, that's what I mean, but didn't articulate very well...
The years after WWII in the Zone/Europe were perhaps THE major pivot point in 20th century history. On the one hand, England essentially passed its empire on to America, and became a client-state of the American empire. It was the beginning of the replacement of the English Empire with the American one -- which was basically consecrated and made official with the Suez Crisis in 1956. Making Pirate carry the metaphorical weight of the *subsequent* crimes of the American empire evokes this.
But the other major simultaneous pivot--that turned out not to be a pivot at all, but rather an revealing or unmasking--was in the position opposite the Empire, the enemy of the British/American continuum, which was prior to the Zone supposed to be fascist Germany + its allies. That enemy soundly defeated (by the Soviets), the Americans risked losing the justification for the War Machine they had built up in the war years, and so they needed to pivot to fighting Russia. But this shift from fighting Hitler to fighting Stalin turned out to be no shift or pivot at all for a certain section of the American + British Deep State, exemplified by the Dulles Brothers, who were basically allied with the Germans (under the table) and always saw the USSR as the actual enemy of the US. (Remember that Foster Dulles cried like a little bitch when he was forced to stop signing all his correspondence "Heil Hitler" and close his Berlin office--I would never use such sexist language except when describing a fascist).
So in various ways, the novel points out the veiled or underground alliance between US and Germany throughout the whole World Wars period -- something to be on the lookout for throughout the novel.
Love this. An analysis of Slothrop's character has always been one of the more confusing/difficult aspects of the novel for me, but viewing it through this lens might bring out some interesting ideas.
2666 is one of my favorite novels. It is quite brutal though.
It's such an incredible novel. I'll probably be rereading it this coming year. Currently rereading The Savage Detectives actually. Bolano is great all around.
A great recent exploration of these ideas is the poetry collection Banana [ ] by Paul Hlava Ceballos. A lot of it is composed from scraps of United Fruit documents and focuses a lot more specifically on the suffering they created.
Interesting, I will have to check that out. Thanks!
I don't know, I read the banana more prosaically. Obviously there's the Freudian symbolism, as subtle as a banana cream pie to the face. I also get the impression that in this war torn economy, food is scarce and rationed, so the barrack's residents are lucky to have these nourishing life-affirming bananas on hand. And a penis, too, is life affirming in its own way.
This scene, together with the ones that follow, start an ongoing theme of the cthonic, the earthy, the squidgy, mucousy, slimy organic things of biology, that are at some points life affirming (as opposed to that steel banana), at other points nauseating, and often both, I mean, think of the act of birth.
Both penises and bananas are funny, both penises and bananas are gross, and yes, both penises and bananas are important.
So while I agree that the penis/banana/biological/mechanical aspects of this are huge, I think that this initial discussion of the banana is meant as an attempt to invoke the UFC. Once we get more phallic representations of the mechanical versus biological (which really comes into play once Slothrop is introduced) then you'll see my comparisons for those themes.
So I agree with you in what the banana and thus the Rocket/penis represent, but I do also think that this specific scene was meant to invoke the specifics mentioned above.